Lutheran-Catholic Differences
Q: Why do Lutherans dislike the Catholics?
A: Some misguided Lutherans dislike Catholics, it is true. Of course, some misguided Catholics dislike Lutherans, too. Dislike, however, is not what should determine our discussion. Instead, we should focus on differences and similarities, especially in doctrine.By your question, I assume that you mean members of the Roman Catholic Church. True Lutherans realize that we are also catholic Christians; that is, we are members of the Una Sancta, the one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We disagree with the idea that the Roman Church holds the monopoly on being “catholic” and that “no salvation outside the Church” means “no salvation outside Roman Catholicism.” However, we teach that if you are not a “catholic” Christian, then you are of a sect or a cult.
Our understanding, based on the Scriptures, the Creeds, and our Lutheran Confessions is that the true Church is made up of all believers on earth and of all the saints at rest. This is what “catholic” truly means. With this in mind, we see “Roman Catholic,” in its fullest understanding, as a contradiction: One cannot be both “Roman” and “catholic” &mdash Romanism subdivides and shrinks catholic Christianity.
Christ’s Church is not only universal, but also eternal. Our worship spans time and space as we stand in awe with Moses at the burning bush, are amazed with Gideon at wet fleece with dry ground and dry fleece with wet ground, sing praises and make confession with David, fall in fear with Peter, James, and John as Christ is transfigured, and gather around the throne of God and the Lamb with all the company of heaven.
This Church is not owned, controlled, or founded by any person, entity, or place other than Jesus. It is the Bride of Christ, bought by his blood, called by the Holy Ghost through water and the Word, and nourished by the Gospel of forgiveness and the body and blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper.
Lutherans (officially and doctrinally) have problems with much of Roman dogma. This includes the papacy, regulations regarding celibacy, diet, and such, required confession and enumeration of sins, invocation of the saints, and an apostolic succession based upon who touched whom rather than the transmission of the apostolic Word which is, again, the Gospel.Some American Lutherans fell into the Protestant trap of loathing all things (and people) Roman Catholic, rejecting individual confession, clerical vestments, the ancient and holy Liturgy, the Lord’s Supper every Lord’s Day, and the like. Because they equate these practices with the papacy, they think that everyone who follows them is guilty of “Romanizing” the Christian Faith. These are also more likely to harbor other anti-Catholic sentiments, including dislike of individual members of that church.
This is a far cry from Luther and those reformers who worked most closely with him. “We do not abolish the Mass,” they wrote; instead, they celebrated it every Sunday, feast day, and whenever the people asked for it. They rejected private masses, since they taught that the Supper is for the whole congregation, that it benefits only those who eat and drink, and that it is useless and wrong for priests to eat and drink on behalf of others, whether dead or alive. They also removed the Canon of the Mass with its focus on the merits of the saints and other obscuring of Christ.
They kept and encouraged individual confession and Holy Absolution, abolishing only Penance, forced confession, and the requirement that all sins be enumerated — for Scripture tells us that we cannot make restitution for our sins, that repentance is based on faith and not force, and that no one can number and recite all his sins, for they are too many.
Yet for all the differences in doctrine, we still have much common ground and it is shameful to look down upon Lutherans, Catholics, or any other true Christians who know and believe in Jesus Christ, the God-man as Savior and Lord. However, when genuine doctrinal differences exist, it is also shameful to pretend that they don’t, especially when they touch directly upon the salvation of sinners.
Note: Catholic-Lutheran Comparison, an earlier posting, contains related material.
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Walter Snyder is the pastor of Holy Cross Lutheran Church, Emma, Missouri and coauthor of the book What Do Lutherans Believe.
posted by Xrysostom | 22:39
34 Comments:
Pastor, what about the Petrine Doctrine, when Christ instituted Peter as the first pope. What about the succession of papal authority? On another note, what about "Sola Fide?" Did Christ write down scripture or instruct his disciples to do so? If not, then how can the written New Testament be all that there is to follow? What about fasting? Did Christ fast for 40 days; also, the apostles fasted before they did anything of great importance. It seems like a great way to remove oneself from earthly things. Thank you.
Anonymous/Truth-searching Christian
Pastor, Thank you very much for the clarification that we are in fact Catholic just not Roman Catholic so to speak. Everyone including alot of Lutherans call ourselves everyhting but Catholic.
I see myself as a catholic christian, and from all my reading I strongly believe that Martin Luther never saw himself as anything else either.
I would love to see more people recognize Lutheran as meaning simply catholic.
With all due respect Pastor, the term "Roman Catholic" was not created by the Catholic Church (based in Rome), nor does the Catholic Church encourage that term's use. In the course of the reformation the protestants created the Romanist/Papist slurs (and they ARE protestant concocted slurs) to differentiate themselves from the True Church.
Lutherans are NOT Catholic. Lutheran means "Of Luther". Luther was a German Catholic with German Nationalist tendencies who despised non-German habits and attitudes, and who broke with the Catholic Church over certain Church abuses and created a German Nationalist Church rather than fighting the good fight to correct said abuses. Luther succeeded in further dividing the peoples of Europe. Division is NOT Catholic!
The Catholic Church itself corrected those abuses in time, while Luther set in motion a process that has resulted in 33,000 different brands of "Christianity", segregated based on language, nationality, race, and social class. In addition, these 33,000 vary like night and day on such basic Christian questions as the nature of salvation - the Calvinist/Presbyterian view on salvation is as different from the Lutheran view as the Catholic view is. Of course, only the Catholic view takes into account and works out all of Scripture, rather than picking and choosing what suits its needs.
Regardless of nomenclature, the Catholic Church represents the uninterrupted embodiment of True Christianity since the early Church Fathers, and indeed Christ. And it represents all human differences, on a profound level. On the other hand, one CANNOT be a member of the Church of Sweden and be Catholic. One cannot be a member of the Evangelical Church of Norway and be Catholic. One cannot be a member of The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark and be Catholic. One cannot be a member of Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland and be Catholic. One cannot be ELCA or LCMS and be Catholic. Outside of Lutheranism one cannot be Church of Scotland or Anglican and be Catholic. How can those whose very essence is division be Catholic? Despite what you like to imagine about Christian Brotherhood, Norwegian Lutherans have no more affinity with Scottish Presbyterians than they do with Catholics. They are separate. Not one. Not Catholic. The above churches formed out of nationalistic, anti-universalist tendencies and have since their formation been marked by linguistic, national, racial, and class exclusion, each to varying degrees.
There is only one church that has, as scripture prophesizes, brought all true Christian believers together regardless of language, nationality, race, and social status. This church's politics are not perfect and never have been. This church consists of humans who fail, but in the face of failure prefer correction to division. THAT is Catholic. This all-embracing, universal, Catholic Church is based in Vatican City, and is currently headed by His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI.
I have Lutheran friends. I like them, I respect them, but always such naivete! People need to know the whole history.
As a point of order, it was the horribly erring Pope who, rather than discuss the option of correcting medieval abuses in the Church, excommunicated Luther. Luther didn't leave anything-- he was jettisoned.
Catholic Lutherans see the warts of the Pope, and the "petrine office" much clearer than many of our Roman friends. Perhaps if these popes had less interest in monarchical power and subjugation of all things under themselves, they would have prevented the 16th century schism, and not gone to great lengths to kill anyone who disagreed with rampant simony.
I love my Roman friends deeply, but until the Roman church sees her Pope as servant of all, rather than Lord of all, we will continue to see division between catholic Christians.
Regards.
The name of the Highest Priest of Jupiter in Roman religion system is Pontifex Maximus.
What does Pope imprint in their coins?
Pontifex Maximus...
Pontifex maximus means what highest priest in latin, latin was the dominant world language when the church was founded so they called and still as an old habit continue to call their highest priest highest priest. so, what is your point and do you have an argument for debate?
Pastor, Lutherans and all Protestants to my knowledge place the authority of Scripture above the authority of the institutional Church, yet which came first? Jesus did not walk around with a Bible, and He often contradicted Old testament teachings. The first Christians did not have Bibles. Most could not read. It was the institutional Church, was it not, which collected and approved various books of Scripture and made the book we call the Bible. Before this, before this, the Church had "authority" and the "Word" of God was present within it. Most Christians were taught and edified not by the written Word alone (if at all), but by oral tradition, the teachings of the Fathers, and sacred custom. The Reformation sought to reform a number of things, and rightly so. But often the baby was thrown out with the bath water, and even Luther decried the extremes to which some reformers went. We should look to Scripture for authority, yes, but also to what existed BEFORE.
-Hans
First, like a great many Lutherans, I do not accept the term "Protestant" as describing me. It is generally identified with an anti-sacramental, rationalistic theology which we reject as firmly as Roman Catholics do. We too, for example, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, and the practice of absolution.
It was Catholics who saddled Lutherans with the name "Lutheran." Neither Luther nor his followers are responsible for a description which Luther in fact repudiated.
Jesus did not make Peter the first pope; that is simply a matter of Roman Catholic tradition. There is no historical evidence that Peter was ever bishop of Rome, and very little that he died or even visited there.
Jesus says nothing to Peter in Matthew 16:16 which he did not say to the apostles as a whole elsewhere, and in so many words, except for his naming "etros (small rock or stone), in 's commemoration of the petra(large rock like the Rock of Gibralter) upon which he would build His Church. The petra was Peter's confession that He is the Christ, the son of the Living God. There has never been a time in Christian history in which the primacy of the pope has ever been accepted by a consensus of the faithful.
Not so the authority of the New Testament, whose extent ad authority was agreed upon without official recognition by any pope or ecumenical council by the end of the Third Century. To answer your question, the institutional Church was called into being by the apostolic proclamation embodied in the New Testament, not the other way around.
Sola scriptura does not mean that scripture is the only authority in the church. It only means that the teaching of Christ and the apostles are the ultimate authority. That Roman Catholicism departed from that authority and substituted that of the magesterium- a magisterium that has often erred and contradicted itself- early in the Church's history- created the whole problem that necessitated the Reformation.
The Sola Fide, insisted upon so strongly by St. Paul (and not at all contradicted by James, who uses the term "faith" not in the Pauline sense of existential trust, but rather in the sense of intellectual knowledge) is the heart and core of Christianity. If we are not saved by faith alone, we cannot be saved by grace alone, and the heretic Pelagius was right after all.
Nothing wrong at all with fasting- as Luther himself says in the Small Catechism.
In fact, the principle that scripture interprets scripture and that scripture as a whole is the ultimate criterion for interpreting its individual parts- the Analogy of Faith- has always been central to Lutheran hermaneutics. On the other hand, as with justification and many other matters, Catholicism simply rejects or reinterprets whatever in Scripture contradicts the magesterium, which is seen as standing over and above the teaching of Christ and the apostles.
Roman Catholicism, too, is but one Christian denomination among many. It has no claim to uniqueness, having departed from the teachings of Christ and the apostles early on. While Lutherans believe that all true Christians belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, which denomination constitutes the true visible church on earth must be judged by comparing the teachings of each church to that of Christ and the apostles. Regrettably, Catholicism places the authority of the magesterium above these, effectively disqualifying itself.
By the way, Jesus never contradicted any teaching of the Old Testament- although, being the very God Who inspired the Old Testament, he did change some of them. He, and not the Pope, is the only one with the authority to do that. And since Jesus is God, it's safe to say that He didn't need to carry a Bible around with Him!
The first Christians certainly did have the teachings of the Apostles- the content of the New Testament. It was those teachings which called the institutional Church into being. There is a word the early church had for those who subordinated these to human teachings, even those promulgated by bishops and theologians.
They called them "heretics."
In short, you've been well and truly propagandized, my friend. But you might want to consider that Lutherans, not Catholics, get to define what Lutherans believe!
Thank you for a brillinat, concise exposition of an important issue within the "high church" evangelical tradition.
Dear Pastor-
Thank you for your idenifying the similarities between Catholics & Lutherans. What would you say are similarities of Lutherans and say, Southern Baptists?
Hello Pastor Snyder,
As a Roman Catholic - one who's roots are Lutheran, I am going to jump into the conversation.
You mention that the Catholic Church teaches that one can only be saved by being a Roman Catholic. That is not true.
In Vatican II-Lumen Gentiun #16 is clear: "They who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation."
Vatican II -Unitatis Redintegratio:
speaking of Christian communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church - "one cannot charge with the sin of seperation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers and sisters."
St. Paul in Romans 8:9 makes clear that if one has and follows the Spirit of Christ, he "belongs to Christ." But, to belong to Christ is the same as being a member of Christ, and that is the same as being a member of the Church. (Fr. William Most).
When we teach the Catholic religion to the children - we sometimes explain things like this - the difference between the many Christian communities and the Catholic Church is the menu. The Catholic Church has the full menu. All means available for salvation is found in the Catholic Church i.e. 7 sacraments...
As for "Salvation:, the only way possible for salvation is through the cross of Jesus Christ.
God bless you!
I think we need to all look to the Light of the East to reconcile Christianity. The Eastern Catholic Churches (former Orthodox who are now in Communion with Rome)are very important in getting everyone back together. A very Ancient expression of Faith while saying the same thing as Rome, just a different expression of the same Apostolic Faith! Was raised as a Lutheran (ELCA) but can no longer remain there. I am converting to Catholic, but the only hinderance is the lack of any Eastern Catholic Churches in the area!
I am married to a Catholic women and attend both churches. The kingdom of God is inside you not a building. The pope does not ask to be worshipped this is falacy, he always points the way to Christ as the saviour. Priests do not pray to the pope, they pray to God. They do respect him as the elder and final word in higher matters, much as every church has elders. Lutherans love and study Gods word and serve humanity in social practices of good works, so do the Catholics.We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ not churches. It is rediculous to think otherwise, and neither one teaches that.
Wow that did not help at all!!!! Thanks for wasting my time
Lutheranism and Catholicism are the most reasonable Christian confessions in my opinion. We should like each other and oppose fundamentalists instead.
I think your all nuts. Believe in Jesus as God's great plan for salvation through HIS death on the cross is the only way to ever be in heaven. Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist and any other "name given by man" is nothing. Wake up people, see God for who HE really is. The creator of all, the Great I am. Jesus Christ.
When you speak of the differences between the Lutheran and Catholic religions why is it that no one mentions that it is primarily the "doctrines" (the man-made rules) of the Catholic Church, not the dogma,that are at issue? Being baptized and raised, as one of those "people who deserted the Catholic Faith and followed Luther", I did, in fact convert to Catholicism when I married a "cradle Catholic"......I now find myself in a terrible situation. When I converted, 40 years ago!!.... I was naive enough to believe (and unfortunately at that time I needed only to attend 3-4 informal meetings to qualify for conversion,and I was taught very little about the actual church doctrines) that the basic faith was the same...the Catholics obviously had more "rituals",(and I do not mean that to be in any way a derogatory statetment, but I'm referring to crossing themselves, kneeling, Holy Water, etc.) However, over the last few years as our children grew into adults, we became much more involved in the Church.....RICA,Small Faith Group Scripture Study, etc. and I am embarrassed to say this but the more I have learned about the "differences" in what I was taught as a Lutheran (ELCU) and what I am now learning as a Catholic, the more I am becoming convinced that I just cannot buy into alot of the Catholic "doctrines" and beliefs. This issue has caused a great deal of disharmony between by husband and myself and I am at a lose as to what to do. What I do know is that I feel like a hypocrite when I attend church functions and that any attempts to discuss it with my husband usually ends up in a heated argument with each of us defending our beliefs. Any suggestions at all?
Do you all really think the Lord wants us to go at it with each other? Is there Cathloics or Lutherans in heaven? Who are any of us to judge one another?
I understand what you're saying, however,it isn't that simple. Your question about who is in Heaven, Catholics or Lutherans,is a great example of "one" of the issues we disagree on.......It was at a Group Meeting that I learned that the Catholics felt that their church was the ONLY "Perfect" church and that it was each Catholic's "job" to show the "rest of us" the "right way" so that we could join them in Heaven. How can you attend a Catholic church when you don't believe that you must go to confession and that a Priest has the ability to forgive your sins......and if a Priest can do so,they why not a Lutheran Minister? Other issues such as Purgatory, One Mediator, re-marrying in the church after divorce, committng a "mortal sin" by missing Mass, beliefs relative to the Pope, and more, prohibit us from agreeing on religion and seemingly make it impossible for us to attend church together....which is definately something we want to continue to do. So, is it better that one of us be a hypocrite by attending the other's church and "pretend to believe all that they teach or just attend and believe only the parts that we agree with" or do we, after 42 yrs of marriage, begin attending different churches? Which seems more "wrong" or "right" to any of you?
I'm an ELCA Lutheran. True,many Lutherans come in different forms, teachings on Scripture,etc. Luther did not create a "new church". He retained the worship structure from the only church there was at the time-the Church of Rome. He loved this church. All he did was reform some of the abuses, rejected that the Pope has dominion over spiritual matters and souls of Christians on earth. You know who has the real authority over our souls in the end? CHRIST-the only son of the Father. Please, let us stop picking each other apart over who's right or who's wrong. Whatever denomination you belong to, we all 1 thing in common. We love and adore God. Whatever Church you attend-if you feel that's where God has led you-there lies the your "true Church"
In Christ- MCW
Well said, my friend.
Peace.
Is there a difference between Faith Lutheran and Grace Lutheran beliefs or churches?
Now im confused i was raised catholic in my country colombia, i have a family now and my husband well you can say he really doesnt have a religion hie says he just beilieves, he was raised a mormom but never erally foloowed his religion between the two of us i have been more into my beliefes and into what i used to called my church, i feel very weird, my first son had his baptism in a roman catholic rite abd church... looking for a church that accomadated the needs of my family (they could only come in an especific date from colombia) this was a dilema because i know no one in ny that could be the godparents only my cousins, now i went to my first option and the church said they only did the baptism on a date that didnt work with the traveling dates of my family , what all this is taking me too is that we saw a nother church and we thought it was the same type of church, now we were ask for the date, and they had no problem with it... now we arrange everything for the baptism and also my husband agreed to have a baptism for himself in this church... then we agree to continue attending this church because our kids needed to have a basis in theirs lives about god and jesus and all that classes, sunday school, but then one minute to another i felt that i dont want to teach my son wrong beliefs or i dont know things that are gonna be way different that mine... i dont what to do i also consider becoming a lutheran but im confused now...i feel sad why ?
sorry for the mispellings...
I was brought up in an atheist household, but had devout Catholic grandparents that were the most wonderful two individuals that walked this earth. Never did I hear them criticise another denomination. There are differences, sure, but in the end, let us all see that we are each doing our best to serve Him the best way we know how.. He that gave His life for our salvation. There are worse things, my friends... like growing up in an atheist household where there is absolutely no hope, peace and much criticism and judgement of others.. that is what we (Christians) are wasting our time doing. That is not what our Lord expects from us. Let us find the common and good in our search for the truth.. but as a devout Catholic that is in love with Christ, I truly believe this statement by the Vatican: "They who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation."
And this includes us Catholics. We are all human and I cannot believe there is one denomination (out of the 34,000 Christian denominations) that has got it ALL right. God is compassionate, merciful and just and will grant salvation to those who seek Him with a sincere heart - no matter the denomination.
God Bless
Prior to the Lutheran doctrine, there was the catholic church. Of course Peter was the leader of the disciples. Not only you have read that Jesus chose Peter to be the leader and foundation of the catholic church. When you began to read the beginning of the new testament, Peter was always in the middle of things and usually the first to start. When Jesus asked the Disiples who he really is. The only Disciple who knew was Peter. Jesus said that the information was given to PETER ONLY. Of course Jesus was grooming Peter from the beggining when he first saw Peter as a fisherman. Remember do you think that when the last disciple died, the end times came. Of course not. The Roman Catholic Church is the only light to salvation.
Never! Not unless you enter the One True Church. Pastor can say what he wants.
A BIG ditto. It's amazing how Protestants make the rules as they go. Lutherans "catholic", LOL!
In keeping with the topic of the differences between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Lutherans, what is the Lutheran stand on who the Virgin Mary is and what role she plays...Is she revered and believed to be assumed into Heaven holding a special place? What about the many saints revered by the RC Church?
How to understand the Holy Eucharist in Protestant Church? ( Its significance)?
And Compare and contrast between two churches about holy Eucharist ( Catholic church and Prostestant )?
Thanks
I became a catholic when I was 40. I was baptized, did my first communion, and also did my confirmation. I have been working as a CCD teacher at my parish for about 5 years now. However, for the past year or so I've been having doubts about the catholic church. I personally do not believe in confession and penance. I feel that a priest is a person just like myself, capable of mistakes and sin. I especially have deep reservations with the actions, or lack thereof, the catholic church has demonstrated against so many priests all over the world that have molested so many,innocent children. Especially when this is something that has been allowed and covered up by the catholic church for who really knows for how many years. This went as high up as the Vatican, and little or nothing was done by the church unless the authorities were involved. I have been considering change towards the Luthern faith as a result. In my heart I know I can not continue to teach certain things I don't believe myself, even though I do love working with the children and the other members in the parish. I could really use some advice.
MZ
Its not about religion; its about a relationship wih Jesus. Regardless of denomination, it your church doctrine differs from the Bible, it isn't the Bible that's wrong. The Bible says salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Salvation is gained by believing in the death, burial and resurrection and accepting Jesus' sacrifice in your place to pay for your sins. We could never be enough or d enough on our own to pay our sin debt. Its that simple. Nothing I see in the Catholic religion is Biblical. Matter of fact, the Bible calls the roman church the whore of babylon and says to come out of her! Do not be bound by a religion that holds you in fear and tradition...embrace Jesus and no that His shed blood alone is enough!
I have been reading a lot on how the Lutheran Church despises Catholics... The language has been very hateful and very unchristian! If you don't believe something and you aren't being harmed why spread SO much hate? I'm not necessarily talking about this article but Lutherans in general. Lutherans aren't any better or worse than any other religion...
In response to the comments by M DeNero: Wow! I will pray for you.
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